Vrinda Gupta: Reimagining credit cards for women

22 minute read


Anjana: [00:05:59] So, Vrinda, thank you so much again for doing this with us, we’re super excited to have you on today. I wanted to start, if it’s OK with you, with a personal credit card question. [00:06:11][11.3]

Vrinda: [00:06:12] Yes, let’s do it. [00:06:13][1.2]

Anjana: [00:06:14] Basically, my credit score is just a little below the 800 mark, but I, from what I understand or what Discover is telling me is that I’m doing everything right except that I don’t have enough credit lines, but I’ve heard that if I get another credit card, my score goes down. Can you explain? [00:06:36][21.7]

Vrinda: [00:06:40] Yeah, sure. So to go into some of the basics of credit scoring. Just to set the stage. So there are five main factors that go into your credit score. The first one is your repayment history. So are you paying on time, etc. the second is your credit utilization, which is just a fancy term of saying in terms of the line of credit that you’re being offered, how much of that are you using in percentage form? And the lower the better. The third piece is your length of history. How long have you been visible in the system? The fourth that you’re talking about is your credit mix or your different types of credit. And the last one is your new credit. How many times has someone checked your credit? Are you going out there to be getting a bunch of lines of credit, which doesn’t look great to a lender, and then that’s why they will, you know, that might count against you in the short term. So to answer your question directly, in terms of your credit mix, getting another credit card is only going to be helpful if you’re able to manage it. Right. And I think the problem is if you’re indexing for factor number four, it might affect the factors one to three that really make up 90 percent of your credit score. [00:07:59][79.3]

Vrinda: [00:08:00] So in terms of what is affecting your entry into the 800 Club, that might be one of them, but more likely, one of the hacks that I always like to share with women and teaching us kind of the rules of this game that unfortunately society has not done is this idea that you actually want to keep your credit utilization as low as possible. So as I mentioned, below 30, ideally below 10. And the secret to an 800 score is actually keep your utilization below 10 percent at all times, even in the middle of the month, because sometimes your report or your behavior will be reported to the credit bureaus in the middle of the month and not at the end. So even if you’re paying off on time every month, just a snapshot in the middle might show that you’re not in that perfect below 10 percent range. So sorry for a long winded answer. I just feel it’s important to set the baseline just to understand the context and all of that. [00:09:00][60.3]

Anjana: [00:09:01] No that’s really, really interesting. I mean, I think like I’ve heard that 30 percent for sure, like I’ve read that in multiple places. I did not know it had to be below 10 percent at all times. Good to know. [00:09:11][10.6]

Vrinda: [00:09:12] Yeah the lower the better. [00:09:12][0.2]

Anjana: [00:09:15] Thank you for that framework. [00:09:16][0.7]

Sydney: [00:09:19] That was helpful, getting in a little credit, credit, building tips and lessons in today’s episode. I love that. [00:09:24][5.3]

Vrinda: [00:09:25] Me too. [00:09:25][0.2]

Sydney: [00:09:29] Vrinda, you have quite the resume. You finished your undergrad at UCLA and then joined the rotational program after you graduated at Visa and then you went on to graduate school at Haas and then IDEO. And here you are leading Sequin. Could you tell us a bit about this journey and give us a quick career rundown? [00:09:49][20.3]

Vrinda: [00:09:50] Yeah, absolutely. So I guess a little bit of background. My family and I are first generation immigrants to this country, and I always grew up realizing how important financial services were and having a good credit score was because ultimately, if you don’t have a good score then you weren’t able to access the things that you want and your opportunity is kind of capped by cash. And you know that specific dynamics in my household, which I think is very similar across many households is, regardless of how incredible and amazing my mom was, she was one smart cookie. She never felt really confident in managing the household expenses. She was always an authorized user on my dad’s card. She always had this real fear of the financial industry. So I went to UCLA for undergrad and after I graduated, I found opportunity to work at Visa. And I just thought it would be so interesting to be in the belly of the beast. And I think for me personally, you know, my mom and I are very close and I have so much respect for her. And it kind of was just a way for me to say, hey, you know, I can learn about the system. I can teach you, I can teach a lot of my friends and a lot of these amazing women who also were amazing, hyper, hyper confident. And I just kept on feeling like there was this fear. And I said, OK, now I want to conquer that. I’m going to make it better. And I was always really passionate about financial literacy and financial inclusion. And when I joined the cards team at Visa, I was building popular credit cards, including the Chase Sapphire Reserve. I was always trying to learn as much as I could about credit and cards. And I was so excited I thought I’d done everything right. I was ready for this kind of high value card that I helped build. And I applied for the card at work and I got rejected. I think it was just this moment where I felt very much like I had learned as much as I could, and there are still rules to this game that I didn’t know. And ultimately, you know, my problem and the reason that I got rejected was that I was an authorized user on my dad’s card. And as we talked about, going back to the lengthy intro on this, is that if you’re an authorized user, you’re building credit for someone else, because someone else is really that primary person. And it’s only affecting your length of credit. Right. You’re credit visible in the system, but you can’t really see what is your utilization, what is your repayment history, because the primary user is doing that. I didn’t know. I thought I was doing all the right things. And a lot of people, especially young women, are authorized users on a parent or partner’s card. So I got rejected and I said, hey, you know, I was never taught this. Also, I think something’s really wrong with the system. And I started digging more and more to the data, especially being one of the only women on my team, being one of the only young people on my team and obviously the first generation immigrant piece as well. I just said, OK, I have more to learn. And what I saw on Visa data was even women with one plus credit cards are putting 70 percent of their spend on noncredit tools. And that’s not building our credit history. It’s leaving valuable rewards on the table and ultimately it’s affecting our ability to access credit in a fair and equitable way because we aren’t building those credit histories. And I just felt, again, you know, full circle access to credit equals access to opportunity. And if women don’t have access to equal and equitable credit, then it’s capping our opportunity. And it just became this one thing after another. And I said, OK, I have to do something about this. So I left Visa actually to go to B-school. I went to business school at Berkeley and I just said I have a little bit more to learn about entrepreneurship. I just want to be a little bit older before I take the dive. And I did my MBA summer internship at IDEO and it was just the most amazing experience. I was working on open financial systems and, you know, I was fresh off of my rejection at Visa and I was talking to many young women about their experiences with credit. And I just kept on hearing the same three things. I kept on hearing credit doesn’t feel very relevant — the rewards aren’t super exciting, I’m just going to cash back, it’s all dining, travel airlines, they just feel very not exciting to me. I listened to that factor and realized credit cards were never designed with women in mind. Actually, we could be rejected without a male cosigner until 1974 and then RBG, RIP, her work with the ACLU really allowed women to get rid of that. So that was one, the second piece was that credit doesn’t feel approachable to me. I feel there’s a lot of information. I don’t know where to get credible information. I don’t know who to trust. It doesn’t feel personalized. And frankly, it’s a bunch of men talking to me, where are the women? So that was the second thing I heard and then the last piece I kept on hearing was it’s honestly just a little confusing and scary where I feel like there are a lot of gotchas here. I don’t know if I’m doing the right thing. I just don’t feel like there’s a lot of guidance in this. So at IDEO, all of these things were swirling around in my mind, and I pitched all this to a woman in a restroom as we’re washing hands, and I said all of this in 30 seconds. And basically I blurted — I think she asked me ‘How your internship going?’ — I said you know the internship is interesting, however, I just feel women are lacking a good credit experience. And there are all these problems from being able to get personalized insights, to better rewards, to really feeling like there’s a community around us. From my experience at VISA, I feel like I have to do something about it. And she said, ‘I think you should, we will give you some money to get started and we’ll support you.’ And she said, ‘You’re going to be an entrepreneur, no going back!’ And I think having someone I respected so much allow me to give myself the permission I hadn’t given myself to take the leap into entrepreneurship made all the difference. And, you know, the rest is I guess we can chat about that in the rest of this session together, but that’s kind of how I got started. [00:16:14][383.8]

Anjana: [00:16:15] Question — that 30 second pitch you had, did you have that,perfected beforehand, or was it kind of like on the spot. [00:16:20][5.5]

Vrinda: [00:16:22] No, honestly. I have always had so much respect for this woman. And I think I was kind of just freaked out when she started talking to me and she said, ‘How’s your internship?’ And I said, ‘I don’t know, I just can’t stop thinking about women needing better credit experiences.’ And I didn’t know where it was going to go, but lo and behold, here we are. [00:16:44][22.0]

Anjana: [00:16:46] That’s amazing, because I probably would have said the internship is great, but I think you should have more chocolate pretzels or snacks or something. [00:16:50][4.8]

Vrinda: [00:16:51] IDEO has a good snack selection, so I didn’t have that issue. [00:16:58][7.1]

Anjana: [00:16:59] Makes sense. [00:16:59][0.2]

Sydney: [00:17:02] Speaking of IDEO, I mean, everybody really knows IDEO for being a pioneer in design thinking and like human centric design. How did that philosophy and being in that environment influence Sequin and kind of how you were thinking about designing the credit card, just any anything you could speak to there? [00:17:25][22.5]

Vrinda: [00:17:26] Yeah, I think at the core of the insights in all of this: credit cards don’t feel very human today. It is a lot of … you just never really see a human in the process [from] when you’re applying to when you’re actually transacting, it’s very kind of like a ‘you’ experience. And then at the end of it, when you go to pay, you know, there’s really not, there’s no community around it. There’s nothing else. And I think at the core of the insight was, you know, we want a more human touch, we want a more personalized touch that’s not the cookie cutter like the other credit cards out there. And also, we want a community of people to do this with. Credit building, the way that you spend, talking about money is so personal. You know, so many other different products and services, they have the hyper personalization plus the community and credit is really missing that. Yet, it’s so core to our lives. And so going to your question on how IDEO kind of influenced that is, I think it just really understood. I didn’t have to do a lot of convincing. When I said how can we make this thing more human, every step of the way, they’ve kind of pushed me to be— okay, do a pilot test with just 12 humans. And see how it goes. I have engineers lined up, have my algorithms written and all these things. If I just make sure that it works, if it works for 12 people, you can build it out at scale and it’ll work for more. So I just love the mindset that they have, even being the center of Silicon Valley, everything so tech, tech, tech and they’re like, just keep it as human for as long as possible. And that advice has served me so, so well. And I’m kicking off this pilot test in a few days, which I’m super excited about. So that’s all thanks to IDEO. Just keeping it human. [00:19:19][112.7]

Anjana: [00:19:19] Keeping it human. That’s good advice for sure, especially in an A.I. and IoT driven world. [00:19:26][7.0]

Vrinda: [00:19:29] Yeah totally. [00:19:29][0.3]

Anjana: [00:19:30] So you were in IDEO last summer, is that correct? And then you’re working on your launch for Sequin in 2021. What has this whole process in this last year look like? [00:19:42][12.7]

Vrinda: [00:19:43] So one of the key insights during COVID that honestly, you know, I’m grateful to have had the moment to take a step back and reflect, was that the initial insight on Sequin was women are not really excited by rewards cards. The rewards are what is prompting women to get credit cards, so we should make a better rewards card that’s more human and more personalized, etc., and that’s still a key feature hook for Sequin. However, during COVID, I was doing my customer interviews and talking to as many women as possible. And one of the things that kept on coming up, it would start off with rewards: “I’m dissatisfied with my rewards.” And then very quickly, it would go into “Actually, I have no idea how credit works. How does it work now that I have you on the phone?” Or “I have this really specific question. I don’t know where to go,” or “I heard this, is that true?” And I realize there’s a lot of misinformation about credit out there, and women want to know. Right. Especially this new generation of women who is highly, highly educated, in control of their future, stepping into her financial power, which, by the way, is more than any demographic ever. She just really wants to know. And I realize in order to build trust with my ultimate Sequin supporters and people on the platform, I want to be able to give them information up front, give them credible information and give them personalized insights that isn’t just you going to a personal financial advice site ans says, hey do this, but actually plugs into your existing credit cards and shows you, how can you make this better and how does it feel like Sequin has your back, regardless of whether or not you have a Sequin card, be able to reward you on those good credit behaviors, use those points towards female focused brands and causes. You’re kind of getting that Sequin experience regardless of whether or not you have a card and then ultimately plugging in that card and making sure that it’s the women who feel ready and feel really confident in their ability to understand credit and use it to its full power. Having that on ramp onto the card is something that COVID inspired me to build. So that’s actually what I’m building first with Sequin is this Sequin experience on top of your existing cards and then be able to offer you a Sequin card when you have the baseline insights, you get kind of what we’re doing and feel really empowered in your ability to use credit. [00:22:26][163.0]

Sydney: [00:22:27] Wow, I also just love how like a key value prop for Sequin is the education component and bridging that financial literacy gap between men and women. The fact that credit cards like as women, we didn’t have access to credit cards until like forty five years ago, just those facts astound me, and so I think it’s amazing that you’re making it your mission to make financial empowerment and credit card education just more accessible to women. I did want to go back to earlier you had mentioned your bathroom pitch in the IDEO restroom. How did you, we would love to know, how did you pitch Sequin to people like Carrie Schwab? I assume that wasn’t a restroom pitch. [00:23:18][50.9]

Vrinda: [00:23:20] No, I know that. So I was connected… Carrie was always my kind of dream investor on Sequin. I’ve always had so much respect for her. She’s done so much for women and financial inclusion. I said if I could have her vote of confidence on this, that would just be amazing. Turns out she was really involved with Berkeley Haas, where I was in business school. And so I kind of weaseled my way into an introduction with her. We had a few initial conversations and she was interested. And finally I just said, ‘Hey, I’m going to come to your office. Are you free this day?’ And she said, OK, come through and, in the spirit of keeping it human, I think what was really appealing to her was this idea that there is a problem in the market. And I kind of took a two fold approach where Sequin has a secret source around this algorithm. Right. That I shared on this is everything that I know about credit from my time at Visa, we’re going to create for you a personalized credit card regimen, of sorts, to make sure that you have the insights that you need to be your best credit self. And I, on her whiteboard, showed her some of the insights in the algorithm, basically, and I was trying them out first, she was like, ‘I had no idea that’s so interesting.’ I was telling her how the gender wage gap really does affect how women are being seen in the credit system. And so appealing to that side and telling her like this is a real problem that we’re trying to solve. And then the second piece was before that I grabbed some flowers and a card. And honestly, you know, in the spirit of just being really human, I think the venture capital space can be a little bit not human and I wanted to show that, you know, this is going to be different than any other investment she was making. Another kind of small human touch that —  a lot of my top table is 92 percent women, which is like my favorite fact ever. And these women are amazing. I’m pinching myself. But after they invested, I sent them a handwritten thank you card with these seeds that you can plant. And there were just these heart confetti, biodegradable seeds. Said just “So excited to watch Sequin grow with you!” And you know it’s those small things that, obviously I wasn’t doing it to… It just felt like it was something I wanted to do. I was really excited. I wanted to give them a gift. Obviously I didn’t want to spend a bunch of their investment on something fancy, but just something small. And I think it really touched all of them. So a lot of young women have been asking my advice on how to pitch, and I said just be yourself and keep it human. Also, if it’s not really yourself, to bring flowers or send people seeds, then don’t do that. I don’t know if that’s helpful, but that’s kind of how I approached it. [00:26:22][182.3]

Anjana: [00:26:23] Something my mentors have consistently told me through college is to never forget the power of a handwritten note, like that human touch is so, so important. So I’m so glad you validated that, because if you can get Carrie Shwab through a handwritten note and sunflower seeds, then I’m all for it. I love that. Well, huge congratulations, your investor list seems amazing. Like I was looking through and I was like, wow, in awe, that is amazing. [00:26:50][27.0]

Vrinda: [00:26:52] Thank you,. [00:26:52][0.1]

[00:26:52] I wanted to ask, this is actually a question from one of our listeners, Courtney Jacobson, and she wanted to know, like, how you got the courage — I know you mentioned it was from the validation of that first investor at IDEO — but how did you really get the courage to leave Visa and say, I want to start something on my own? [00:27:12][19.9]

Vrinda: [00:27:15] You know, it takes a village. I think I’ve been really fortunate throughout my life to surround myself with people who really believed in me and even believed in me in times where, honestly, I said, ‘I’m not sure if I can do this.’ They’re like, ‘You can do it.’ And I think it’s something that we don’t talk about a lot as new entrepreneurs. I think the story is like you’re just hyper confident all the time and you’re putting your best foot forward and all of these things. And I think for me, the piece that I’ve always prioritized is, I want to make sure the people I surround myself with, the investors, my top table, all really believe in me and in what I’m doing and just making sure that regardless of how attractive an investment is, really thinking through, like, is this a person who I want to have on my emotional team? And through the ups and downs, everyone who I’ve surrounded myself with has literally been like, ‘If you can’t do it, who’s going to do it?’ And I think that kind of like — every day you have to wake up and bet on yourself. But there are some days where you’re like, shoot, this is really hard, what did I do? And in those days, you just have to have, like, the amazing people around you to pump you up. And so going back to your question on how do I decide to start this? When I was thinking about the, you know, the concept of a better credit experience for women, period, there are a few credit experts who I really, really look up to. And I remember there’s literally three people, and most of them are my old bosses at Visa that have long histories of working in the industry. And I said, if any of these three people say this is a bad idea, I’m just going to drop it, like it’s done. And each of them were like, this is amazing, and we think you’re absolutely the right person to do it. And even now, I’ll call them up at 11:00 p.m. and I’m having a problem. Can you help? And they’re like, yes. And here is some framework, you can figure it out. So I guess the tall and short of this is just surrounding yourself with cheerleaders and with good vibes, also people who are going to keep it real with you. So you know that when they say something good, they really mean it. And when they give you feedback, you can truly be like this person has my best interests in mind and they’re going to be on my team. So I just have an amazing, amazing support system and I’m really grateful for it. [00:29:36][141.5]

Anjana: [00:29:38] I love to hear it, and that confidence is so important because at the end of the day, you can have a great idea, but those investors are betting on the person running the idea. [00:29:47][9.6]

Vrinda: [00:29:48] Especially at the earliest stages. [00:29:49][1.4]

Anjana: [00:29:51] Right, exactly. So it’s really important to surround yourself with people who will consistently tell you, if you’re not going to do it, who is? And so that’s awesome. I love that quote and that answer. [00:30:02][11.7]

Sydney: [00:30:04] That’s awesome. And you have talked, like throughout our conversation so much about like bringing this human component to a traditional one, just kind of like masculine industry in general, but also just very unapproachable. So along that vein, you know, what would you say needs to be radically reimagined in the financial services industry to make it more accessible to women? What needs to happen? [00:30:34][29.8]

Vrinda: [00:30:36] Yeah, I mean, I think at the core of the problem, right, there’s a lot of problems with products and services that center men and one of my favorite books, I don’t know if both of you are familiar, but called “Invisible Women”. And it’s just talking about all the products and services in the world that were designed with the default male and what the downstream impacts are on women. And, you know, credit is just one of those. And I think, you know, the problem spans … It’s so vast. And I think one of my challenges has been where to start. This is a problem for so, so many women across our life stages. And I realized we wanted to start with young women where, you know, you’re new to the workforce, you’re just tapping into your financial power. You’re ready, right? You’re like, I’m going to get off on the right foot. And part of that conversation should be credit. One of the challenges with credit is you don’t really need a good credit score immediately. The benefits of good credit don’t hit you until a little bit later. And so how do you actually bridge that gap between when you should be starting to build credit, which, by the way, is now, every day, always, to when you need it? And so you know the challenge and how to make it more approachable, I think, is to make it more interesting. Honestly, you know, at the very kind of baseline of it, credit building is not exciting. It’s not sexy. I’m not going to sugarcoat any of that. Right. And I think one of the insights that I was chatting with a bunch of women was, when you do, something, quote unquote, bad for your credit, right? Let’s say like one month you decide to splurge on something and now you’re paying interest on it, et cetera. You could post that. Let’s say it’s like, I don’t know, a new bag or new jeans. You can post that on your Instagram and get like social clout and it’s exciting. When you pay your credit card balance on time and in full, nothing happens. No one cares. Right. So, I mean, it’s really this idea of how do you make this more relevant to your day to day? How do you make it more that, you’re doing this with a community of empowered women? How do you add having good credit to a feminist agenda and being like, you know, just the same way that you’re doing all these other things to further this cause for women and to make sure that you yourself are set up for success, adding credit to that conversation. So to answer your question, you know, starting young, making it very approachable, but also just making it a matter of feminism, I just see having good credit as an act of protest and you’re able to be financially free. And I think that ultimately is the gold standard really for all of us. So, yeah, know lots of problems, but starting trying to start early and make it approachable and fun and communal. [00:33:34][178.7]

Sydney: [00:33:36] Wow. Yeah, I love that. One of the ways that you’re addressing that is also providing rewards for the Sequin Card on products that have a pink tax. Is that correct as well? [00:33:48][11.8]

Vrinda: [00:33:49] Yes. SO one of the kind of feature hooks on the rewards piece is being able to fight the pink tax. And the insight in terms of credit cards today is that most of the categories they earn rewards on are male dominated. So men are spending 60 percent more in these categories, which are dining, travel, airlines. But if you look at where women are spending 50 percent more, it’s actually on household spend, on charity, on personal care department stores, etc. There’s so much that we’re spending on and our dollar isn’t being rewarded there. The second part, directly related to the pink tax, is those categories are the pink tax offenders. So being able to get rewards back on those categories allows you to kind of pocket some of that pink tax, coupled with a second feature hook that we’re looking to build in is an ability to be able to amplify some of these women founded brands or brands that are gender fair as well in the way that they treat their employees, paying their men and women the same, etc., being able to amplify some of that. So you are able to align your dollar with your values basically is the second piece. [00:35:03][74.2]

Anjana: [00:35:03] I love that idea, so I’m on Sally Krawcheck’s app, Ellevest, and so I love that they have like investing for social good kind of aspect to it. And so I’m curious, like with the recent movements going on this year, all of them, all the movements going on this year, BLM, you were seeing a lot more attention in the environmental area with the fires here in California. What kind of are you allowed to tell us, like what kind of brands you’re investing in — or not investing in but what kind of brands you’re giving cash back for, or how you’re addressing corporate social responsibility? [00:35:40][36.6]

Vrinda: [00:35:42] Yeah. So the cash back is going to be kind of category based, as I mentioned, not specifically on certain products and services, but what I have been really excited to test with my beta testers has been around this idea of crowdsourcing these companies. So how do you actually be able to say, you know, I really love this Black-owned company, an amazing woman, how do you amplify that woman and then also her company and have it be upvoted and downvoted and to be able to say, hey, we want to feature this company on our platform. And I think one of the challenges with credit cards today is it’s very static. Right? You always know that it’s going to be, you know, rewards in this category, that category. But you can’t actually, you know, the second there’s a movement, I really wanted to be conscious about where I was spending when BLM happened. I wanted to support more Black-owned. I wanted that to be something I could do, and I just didn’t really know where to start outside of some of these Instagram accounts I follow. So the idea was, if you could amplify those different brands and causes on our card, then it would just be a really seamless way to be like this is a place that I can spend. You already know where I’m spending from my transactions. So can you give me recommendations of different companies, et cetera, that might be more aligned with what matters? [00:37:05][83.6]

Anjana: [00:37:07] OK, that is so cool. Like, I’m very excited to see how that crowdsourcing functionality plays out. I think it’s very cool that it is going to be fluid and not just like, OK, you can spend this much money on gas a couple of months out of the year and get like five bucks cash back, that I’m seriously like Syd said, where can I sign up? [00:37:27][19.6]

Sydney: [00:37:30] Yeah. [00:37:30][0.0]

Vrinda: [00:37:31] It’ll be some time until our card comes out, but we’re really excited to start this co-creation process with a bunch of women and just make sure, like some of these ideas really have legs and it’s truly reflecting the women who are co-creating with us. So, yeah, I want to keep that human and community element front and center. [00:37:50][19.1]

Sydney: [00:37:51] I’ve heard that also doubles as a mirror. Is this true? [00:37:54][3.1]

Vrinda: [00:37:57] So we’re working on that card development aspect. Yeah. I mean, there’s a lot of cool stuff that we can do in terms of card art and that’s another piece. I love the idea of the mirror card. I also want to give women options — do you want the mirror card, do you want something else? Is there a different way to personalize it? So that’s something also to co-create as well. [00:38:21][24.3]

Vrinda: [00:38:23] Well, we’re so excited to follow along this journey. [00:38:26][2.5]

Anjana: [00:38:28] OK, so just one last question before we let you go and something that had stood out to me on your website was this quote, and it says, “One thing the Sequin team heard a lot when we interviewed woman was, ‘I wish my credit card could actually teach me about credit, but I guess that’s not really the credit card’s job.’ At Sequin we believe it is.” So my question for you, I guess, credit cards make money because people don’t pay them off, right? So if you’re educating your users on how to pay them off, where do you see, like, the social good – I feel like there’s always a disconnect between doing social good but then also as a business making money, how do you see your company toeing that line, I guess? [00:39:11][43.3]

Vrinda: [00:39:13] I have been really obsessed with this idea of the social enterprise, right, dual bottom line, doing well by doing good. And I think the beauty in the time that we’re in right now is this ability for consumers to understand that ultimately these companies are businesses. But you don’t have to have either-or. I think the fact that we’ve gotten to a place where the only way to make money is by not telling people things is a fundamental issue to me. And there are a lot of different key revenue drivers, especially with a credit card, for example, every time you swipe the card, the merchant pays you a fee. You actually don’t need to gouge people on interest to have a pretty good business. But I think, you know, there hasn’t been a lot of questioning of that status quo. But now there are a few different players who are saying, hey, you know, maybe we can experiment with different models that are a little bit more transparent. So I don’t really believe in zero sum games. And I think it’s time that someone kind of or different companies are questioning that status quo. I think a lot of legacy companies have ridden that wave of not transparency, a lack of transparency, making them money. But I think consumers, especially young women, are pretty savvy at getting to the bottom of these things and really understanding what they know and what they don’t know. So I think in the future there is going to be rejiggering of how we think about business and how we think about business’ role in society. So that’s the future I want to live in and that’s the future I’m trying to build with Sequin. [00:40:53][100.0]

Anjana: [00:40:54] Retweet, we love that. I know the first time I heard about the triple bottom line was I think 2017 when the BlackRock CEO wrote about it in his annual letter. So I love that you’re pursuing that. And I think consumers are in a place now where they want to put their money in something that they believe in and more transparent businesses. And so we are super, super excited for you Vrinda. And when can we expect this card out? [00:41:18][23.2]

Vrinda: [00:41:20] The card? We’re still developing. As I mentioned, we’re co-creating it, probably sometime late 2021 or late 2022. But we are looking to launch our Sequin experience in the next few months, which will be a way to manage your existing cards and get those insights and get some rewards as well, so look out for that, too. [00:41:42][21.2]

Sydney: [00:41:43] We definitely will. [00:41:43][0.1]

Anjana: [00:41:44] Sydney and I will be the first ones on the list. [00:41:46][1.5]

Vrinda: [00:41:49] That makes me so excited. [00:41:49][0.8]

Sydney: [00:41:51] Thank you so much for just having this conversation with us today. We learned a lot and we hope our listeners learn a lot about credit as well and just the amazing things that you’re doing at Sequin. So thanks again. [00:42:03][12.1]

Vrinda: [00:42:03] I really appreciate you both having me. And check us out, sequincard.com, sign up for our wait list. Follow us on Instagram, we’re @sequin_card. There’s a lot of really great content out there that we just hope every woman has access to. So spread the word. And thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. [00:42:23][19.3]