Meg Honey: Reimagining the future of education

21 minute read


Sydney: [00:03:36] Meg, thank you so much for joining us today. We’re so excited to have you on, especially to talk about a topic that we haven’t yet explored on the podcast. We brought on a lot of guests to talk about various topics relevant to the corporate world and things like that. But you’re our first expert on education. So we’re really looking forward to this conversation this evening. [00:04:03][26.4]

Meg: [00:04:04] Well, thank you. I, the expert label, I will do my best to offer my insights, but oh, my gosh, I still feel like I’m very much in a learning process. And you can hear my dog saying hello to you as well. I guess the joys of being home here, huh? [00:04:19][15.2]

Sydney: [00:04:20] No worries. We were just talking to a guest who was saying, you know, if anything, COVID has brought humanness to these type of things. [00:04:30][9.8]

Meg: [00:04:31] Ain’t that the truth. Yes, indeed. Yes. No, if it’s not my children, it’s our dogs and all kinds of other real realities in this new, I guess it’s not new so much anymore, but yes, the new paradigm that we’re part of. [00:04:44][13.0]

Sydney: [00:04:45] Yeah, definitely. Well, to get us started, we would love to learn more about your career so far, especially just what got you into teaching. Like, was this something that you knew you always wanted to do to get into the space and into education? Or was it just serendipity? [00:05:04][19.6]

Meg: [00:05:07] It was a little bit of both, I think at my core, I, I loved school. I love being part of school communities. I certainly loved all the curricular elements of my educational journey. And kind of throughout college, I had been coaching swimming and had, of course, taken care of young people. You know, I also have a lot of interest in a lot of topics. And then kind of out of college, I was actually a theater major in college. And as I was sort of kind of mapping out those years, post graduation, I really came to the realization that I needed to return to what I loved, which is being with young people, being in spaces where, like I said, I’d been very much connected to coaching. And so those elements really spoke to me and were really life-giving and fulfilling. And so I started my teaching career in the middle school space and was really intentional about that. I loved working with 11 to 14 year olds in the various capacities where I had been. And then as I decided to pursue a graduate degree in US history, I knew I really wanted to make the jump in the high school into a secondary environment. So I taught at several schools in the Bay Area have taught, I think, pretty much every subject in kind of a social studies department, if you will; world history, US history, government, economics, AP U.S. History, AP Art History. I’ve done all these different things and then as wonderful good fortune would have it, I’ve been able to also serve as a member of adjunct faculties, both at St Mary’s College of California and at University of the Pacific, which are both my alma maters. I went to UoP as an undergrad and got my credential at St. Mary’s. So for all this time, I’ve also been able to work with and teach pre service teachers and current practitioners who are in those graduate programs. After doing all of that for 16 years, I was very curious about curriculum, really wanted to pivot and to kind of see our work from a different kind of lens, a different place. And so I came to Savvas and Savvas is a publishing company. I think most people might know us as our previous name, which was Pearson. And so now I’ve been there for almost three years, working with teachers and helping in a lot of different areas in terms of curriculum, some editorials, some product development, kind of a little bit of everything. [00:08:09][181.6]

Anjana: [00:08:12] Meg, from what I understand, most of your work is about creating diverse and inclusive curriculum. When I was in school, I remember PE was one of those classes that we all just had to take. You just got through those Pacer tests wheezing and trying not to die, but I learned a couple of years ago that not all schools actually have PE, that came as a surprise to me. So my question for you is, when did you first become aware of the discrepancies in public education and decide you wanted to focus on developing inclusive curriculum? Was there any, like, one event that stood out to you? [00:08:53][41.2]

Meg: [00:08:55] You know, I have to say that. My awareness of realities that exist in terms of of areas of equity, in terms of funding, and then certainly if we’re going to talk about inclusive curriculum that’s truly representative of multiple experiences and perspectives, I will say that my awareness and understanding of all of those issues came very late in life and I think for me, growing up where I grew up and now where I’m raising my own family at the time where I was growing up, it was a pretty homogenous population. But I will tell you that the experiences of going to graduate school, of really investing in in the study of liberation movements and the intersections of these different periods in our history, making those connections to contemporary events and, you know, becoming very aware of myself as a white woman and the long, shameful history of white womanhood. You know, these were like very specific moments that then propelled me to engage in the work that I’m doing. I will also just say that I really had a tremendous privilege and honor to spend a lot of time in the American South studying the civil rights movement, working with and learning from people who were part of this forever transformative moment in history and others. And I have to say that in my adult life, I feel like there were kind of two moments that really brought me to the work that you’re describing. One visiting and sitting in the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama, where four little girls were killed as they were preparing for a choir concert and really thinking about what that meant, children, victims of racial violence and really going through that process and then becoming a parent myself. I have a daughter and a son. And I have to say, you know, especially with the birth of my son and realizing that I will not have to have the conversations with him that Black women have to have with their sons, I think brought whole levels of reality and groundedness and just a non-negotiable desire within myself to to be part of, to lead, to learn, to listen and to make sure that I was actively engaging in anti-racist work in every facet of my life, personal and professional. So as that relates to the work that I do, it saves a lot of the work that I do is training teachers on curriculum, helping them, supporting them. Gosh, particularly in these challenging and unprecedented times while they’ve made the shift to distance learning. But I’ve also had the opportunity to be part of a variety of different task forces that focus on culturally responsive practices and on anti-racist practices and ensuring that our organization, my colleagues, are utilizing language that is is inclusive, that we are grounding ourselves in the understandings about the power of curriculum and what it means to see oneself and what it means when we don’t see ourselves or others in curriculum. And so I think that to your original question, I think my awakening, if you will, came later in life. And with that being the case, I have tried to be very intentional about what happens in my own family, with my own children, the work that I’m doing in my immediate community, the people that I’m very much listening to and learning from, all of those pieces are now really the driving forces of my life. [00:13:33][278.2]

Anjana: [00:13:38] Growing up for me, I mean, obviously we learned about race, but it was always just kind of like a little side note, right? You have Martin Luther King. They mayne talk about Malcolm X, but as a little like sidebar, Rosa Parks. But that’s it. And I’m wondering, now with the curriculum that you’re building, what does it mean to make it more anti-racist? What do you do that makes you with textbooks and everything else, how are you creating more inclusive curriculum? [00:14:07][28.6]

Meg: [00:14:09] Yeah, it’s I mean, that’s such an important question. And I think what you just said is really reminiscent. Julian Bond, who was the chairman of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and then served as a legislator and lawmaker, he always would talk about, like the master narrative that people have been fed, that, yes, it was Rosa Parks, Dr. King, then Black. Power ruined everything, and Barack Obama was elected we’re in a post-racial society, done and done right. So I feel like, to your point and I think certainly this year of racial uprisings and our collective reckoning around racial justice has made a lot of us in the work of textbooks and curriculum even more determined to get it right. So what does that mean in terms of what you’ve asked me? I will say that here in California, thankfully, our history social science framework, that’s the discipline that I live in and work in our framework, is the most progressive framework of anywhere in the United States. And so we are guided as a curriculum and a textbook company to build materials that align to a state framework in California. That’s wonderful because our framework specifically calls for the inclusion of many different groups that we are centering the experiences of indigenous people, of Black people, of LGBTQIA+ people. And so it’s a really exciting time to be here in California, as you both are very much aware, that does not exist in other states across the country. And in some cases, when I was teaching AP U.S. History, the College Board came out with a new framework for AP U.S. History and then immediately reversed course because of the pressures that they were receiving, that the framework that had been originally designed did not celebrate American exceptionalism. And so then it was like rewound and let’s put more focus on heroes and, you know, these traditional narratives. And so history, social science is political. It is challenging. And as it relates to the curriculum that we are building, that we are looking at, that we are critically examining, we’re doing a lot of things. One, we’ve engaged an amazing, culturally responsive education advisory board experts in this work to help us do some hard self analysis and to say, you know, here’s where this is living and gets it right. And here other places where we really need to be more intentional and specific in the way that these historical events or this description is presented. And then in other places, a lot of our work is really much moved by educators themselves. When we are hearing from teachers that, you know, the material in this textbook or the material that I’ve utilized in this curriculum is not representative of our school community or my students don’t see themselves. I mean, that really provides us an impetus to make some changes. But I’m very proud of the work that we do at Savvas. I am really proud of the the major strides that we’ve been making in these areas. And I also have to say, too, California is not a monolith. My experiences in the San Francisco Bay Area are not the same as they are in the Central Valley or in the Inland Empire. And so we can have really inclusive curriculum that truly represents different experiences, but there is also situations and instances where I have been in districts that were not interested or in some cases outright rejected what we were presenting because the word lesbian shows up here or we are acknowledging and affirming transgender people. So the work continues, right. There’s still a lot still a lot for us to do. [00:18:26][257.3]

Sydney: [00:18:27] And I especially now, I definitely want to hear your thoughts on you know, you said there’s still a lot of work to be done. And what was your reaction, what was going through your mind when I believe it was in September, around that time when Trump was calling for what he calls a patriotic education, what was going through your mind at that time? [00:18:56][29.1]

Meg: [00:18:59] I mean, the first feeling, and that was I think it was actually on Constitution Day that this all came out and President Trump made his very loud and very firm articulated declaration about where and how the history of our country should be taught and what should be emphasized. And so Sydney to your question, my first feeling was I was outraged and yet not surprised. I was heartbroken yet also very much driven to do a lot of things. So what did I do? I, of course, reupped my subscription to The New York Times and the work that was supporting the 1619 Project. I threw on my Zinn Project T-shirt. And I’ve always worshipped at the altar of Howard Zinn and taught A People’s History with students for years and years, gave money to the Zinn Project. And then I engaged with my fellow teachers and historians and really began to focus on ways that we can present nuanced, inclusive, multiple perspective and layered history to students that really not only gives them a full picture of our country’s history, but also provides them with those those vital skills that they need to take to be informed and active citizens. And I think that a lot of what’s hard about the period that we’re living through, aside from those atrocious comments and this articulated desire to create American history, experiences that are rooted in American exceptionalism and victory and all of that. I think that we also then lose out on these opportunities for our students to engage with each other in discussion or debate or to have the opportunity to critically analyze and assess a primary source and think about what that means and what it tells us about a historical era when we are moving into American history the way that it had been taught previously for many years, or focusing only on the victors. Not only are we denying our students a really layered and important historical experience, but we’re also denying them all these other skills that are vital for college, for career, for life, for citizen leadership, et cetera. So, yes, I was deeply troubled, deeply troubled by it. And I almost had to kind of get into spaces with the badass teachers that I know and inspired by who are doing courageous and amazing work in classrooms with their really dedicated and passionate students. So that was sort of my process with all of that. [00:22:08][189.1]

Anjana: [00:22:11] I love what you said about being heartbroken, but then also expecting it or not being surprised at just how it’s been planned. [00:22:17][6.3]

Meg: [00:22:18] Yeah, I just it is it is an interesting time to talk about what historians will say about this period. [00:22:23][5.5]

Anjana: [00:22:25] So one of my all time favorite TED talks is Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie’s The Danger of a Single Story. It is my absolute favorite, it’s on my LinkedIn bio. And she talks about how it’s impossible to talk about the single story without talking about power. Like our economic and political worlds, stories, too, are defined by who has power, how they’re told, who tells them, when they’re told, how many stories are told. All that is really dependent on this concept of power. I feel like we were lacking a comprehensive education. And I would love, I know we touched on this, but I’d love for you to give us some examples of how you maybe had seen an excerpt or something or a part of a textbook that someone came up to you and said, this is just not how it went or this was not representative of my community. And how you or your team went about fixing that. Does that make sense? [00:23:19][54.2]

Meg: [00:23:19] Yeah, no, absolutely. I will say that. The danger of a single story TED talk and Ms. Ngozi’s writings and books have been really formative for my understanding, and I love that that’s part of your LinkedIn profile. [00:23:40][20.2]

Anjana: [00:23:41] I just finished this! [00:23:42][0.7]

Meg: [00:23:44] Oh there it is! How did you like it? [00:23:44][0.5]

Anjana: [00:23:45] It was amazing. I loved it. [00:23:46][1.6]

Meg: [00:23:48] And I think that, oh I’m so glad, of course, you just had that handy and able to reference. I think that that, if her and that particular talk and if her writings could serve as sort of a foundational elements or foundational texts for folks, I think people would be infinitely more aware and heightened to what has been missing in curriculum for so long. Your question about what have I seen in curriculum that distresses me or that has given, you know, opportunities for conversation? And I’m speaking in more general terms, but a lot of this, I think is connected to the stories of the last like 18 months. The New York Times wrote a big piece in January about discrepancies in curriculum based on what states you’re in. And we certainly know those big examples where enslaved people were referred to as servants or that they were “on a trip to America,” like language like that. Pieces that I have seen that are deeply distressing and that certainly in our organization, but I think that this is consistent across a lot of different publishers, is a reckoning and understanding about how the California mission system is taught in fourth grade here in California. And I vividly remember, even though it was 150 years ago, my own fourth grade experience, you know, you built a mission out of sugar cubes or something or material, and you had this understanding that Father Sarah made his way up the El Camino Real and built missions at various places. And that sort of helped be the foundation for communities moving forward. Right. What I’m seeing now and what I am feeling heartened by is the fact that we are now completely, we are centering the narrative and redoing this in ways that are long overdue and vitally important. We are giving much, much more attention to the indigenous people’s experience as it relates to mission building and the Spanish being in California. And I think even a few years ago, that real worry, well fourth graders are not able to handle this kind of information. And I would argue a million times till Tuesday that young people, whether they are in kindergarten, whether they are in fifth grade, whether they’re eighth grade or eleventh grade, are absolutely able to begin grappling with the hard history, the hard truths that exist certainly in California, but from a global perspective, too. So I would say the the ways that the mission experience had been depicted and then the shifts that we’ve seen there. I also think the great point that was that was made earlier, too, that we are really moving away from token mentions of people to kind of check off. Well, we’ve covered this particular group. OK, so Harvey Milk is our LGBTQIA+ representative and check, done and done. We’ve done this. Without any explanation about what it meant to be a white male versus a Black woman who also identified as a lesbian like Audrey Lorde, like we are being very mindful that stories and particularly representation of people who have been marginalized, left out and erased from the historical narrative, deserve so much more than just a drop in or a one person representing all of those experiences. And so I feel like that’s some positive movement that we have seen, not to mention just being more intentional in our language that we refer to people who were were brought to this country in chains as “enslaved”. They are not “slaves”. We are we are putting the onus on the people that did these atrocious deeds. And I think those shifts are really important, too. [00:28:38][290.9]

Anjana: [00:28:40] Yes. Language is so important. And I love the example about the missions in fourth grade. I still remember going to Michael’s with my mom to pick out like the styrofoam and the cutesy little Native American figures and it’s so screwed up, looking back at it. [00:28:52][12.7]

Meg: [00:28:53] I mean like creative outlets and art projects are vitally important. And we know we could have a whole other podcast about the arts and education, arts funding. But I always ask the question, like the building of those missions, for what purpose? How was that deepening your understanding of the experiences of the people that were there? How is that giving, you know, honor and reverence to people who were brutalized as part of that system? Let’s find ways to engage art and creativity in other spaces and invest time in really telling the stories to students so that we’re under no illusions about this American exceptionalism narrative. [00:29:41][47.7]

Anjana: [00:29:42] Yeah, yeah. And you earlier had mentioned that in some communities that you go to and have these curriculum changes for and they’re just like, no, we aren’t having it. How do you deal with that? And does that happen often? [00:29:58][16.3]

Meg: [00:29:59] You know, it’s interesting. As what was called the fair education was passed in California, and this is now going back to like 2011-2012. And I think this is what’s so interesting about Californians. And I will say this about me as a Bay Area person, like I can sometimes get complacent, like, oh, all of California’s one way or everybody is super progressive and woke in the Bay Area. So the process of including LGBTQIA+ people in history, social science curriculum from kindergarten to 12th grade, the process, the struggle, the outrage, these groups that were formed because they believed that this content should not be in curriculum. It was like this inability to separate representation with somebody’s very private personal life. People couldn’t make that separation. And so do I think things have improved? Yes, I do. But the Fair Education Act and including terms like lesbian and transgender and ensuring that as we are honoring and elevating the experiences and the contributions and the perspectives of people and we are accurately acknowledging who they were fully, it was not an easy road. It was not an easy road. And I will just tell you that I had been in places where I had a school district ask me if it was possible for us to black out any terms like lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender. And for me, the great question, like, how did that make me feel? Well, I have friends and family members who are gender queer, who are part of this community, who identify as non binary. And my children, I mean, these are people who are my heart, who are part of my life, who are part of my children’s lives. And so I met with those experiences just sort of. Speechless and very saddened that this is the reality for some children, that they aren’t able to learn these stories and learn about these remarkable people who have made such an impact in our world and in so many different ways. [00:32:38][158.2]

Sydney: [00:32:38] To me, I think it’s so interesting, like the the regional aspect that you were talking about. I’m also in the Bay Area and it is very easy to just kind of sit comfortably in that bubble thinking like, oh, yeah, everybody else in California thinks just as we do in the Bay Area. Anjana and I both went to Cal Poly, which in itself is more of a liberal town, but the surrounding areas, we saw our fair share of Trump flags [00:33:11][32.9]

Meg: [00:33:11] Yeah, it does, it brings awareness. Like I said, nothing is a monolith. Yeah, it is really interesting. And to that, I feel like even in where where I live here in the in the East Bay, even within the last five years, I was very much a part of and leading a counter secession movement. A group of people in my community wanted to take the schools that are in the whitest, most affluent, high achieving corner of our large, diverse district and form their own district. Not to mention that we have a you know, we have under-resourced Title One, high English language learners schools less than a mile away from this proposed district. And, you know, a lot of the language that was utilized by this group who is trying to form this elite district, it wasn’t even coded language. I mean, it was just, it was out there that they felt like not having English language learners in schools would be a luxury. I remember that was something that was continually shared. And so we have these reminders that there is so much work to do. And I feel like right now it’s particularly in in this pandemic, the struggle to move beyond our own, myopic concerns or our hyper localized concerns, like I want to do what’s good for my kids versus what’s good for my kids is good for everybody’s children. So I’m not going to get into a pod of other parents who are well resourced and give my kids these these experiences, unless I am actively insuring that these experiences are also existing for children who are not at the same levels of resource or privilege. So it’s like to me that is where this work really is living for me right now as a parent in this community and something that I’m trying to be very aware of in everything that I’m doing. [00:35:32][140.5]

Anjana: [00:35:37] Just hearing that story, heartbroken yet unsurprised seems to be the theme of the night. [00:35:41][3.9]

Meg: [00:35:42] I feel like, yes, that could be like the hashtag. [00:35:44][2.0]

Anjana: [00:35:44] The title of this episode. [00:35:45][0.2]

Meg: [00:35:45] There it is, Heartbroken, But Not Surprised. [00:35:48][2.9]

Sydney: [00:35:54] I definitely wanted to touch on the nonprofit, Rise Up Against Racism, that you have started, because that’s also clearly one of the ways that you’re continuing to do work, just this anti-racist work outside of Savvas. So, yeah, if you could just speak a bit to what kind of propelled you to start that? And one, I just as a side note, as I was researching this, I love the construction of these little free antiracist libraries. I haven’t seen anything like that before. And I absolutely love the idea. [00:36:38][43.6]

Sydney: [00:36:39] Well, thank you, Sydney. Yes. In the wake of George Floyd’s murder two of my very, very dear friends, Jenny Roy and Sarah Foster and I got together and we were sitting with what we’d all witnessed and what we’d been made aware of and and really just saying, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? And we were very specific about whatever action we took was not going to be performative. It was going to be sustainable. And most importantly, it had to include children and young people because we needed to make sure that any antiracist initiative or program or endeavor we were taking on was going to really drive the work. And so we wanted to continue this work in a way that we thought would be profound and impactful, given the fact that schools were closed. We were looking at what we could do at our own school, but then we thought we need to bring antiracist books to our community, recognizing that learning and reading is the first of many steps in continual anti-racist work. But for a lot of people in our community that maybe hadn’t explored these texts or had an opportunity to do this learning. So, yes, in just a few short months, we have raised a considerable amount of money. We have constructed four little free antiracist libraries in our community, which is Walnut Creek. Each of these little libraries are painted by commissioned black artists and they are filled with books that we have purchased from Marcus Bookstore in Oakland, which is the oldest Black-owned bookstore in the United States. Again, we wanted to be very specific and intentional. And what’s been really amazing about this, the fact that the women that I’ve partnered with in this work are both brilliant. They have talents galore in terms of business and marketing and fundraising and connecting with foundations. And we have literally been inundated with requests for little free anti-racist libraries, from those nearby, to our surrounding cities, to Montana, to Texas. Other people have reached out to us about it. And so I’ll just close by saying that we’re really excited that we have now engaged a 1:1 giving model. So when somebody becomes a steward and pays the money to have this in their yard, we then create and install a little free antiracist library in an under-resourced community. So to the point about the dangers of a single story or Dr. Rudine Bishop’s work that really centers on windows and mirrors and sliding doors. We really want to ensure that our children, they see themselves, they see others, and they have a deep understanding about our shared history and the experiences of people who have not traditionally been present in literature or the historical narrative. And we’re very excited about where this has gone and what 2021 looks like for our organization. So it’s really exciting. [00:40:11][212.0]

Sydney: [00:40:13] Meg that makes my heart so happy. [00:40:14][1.0]

Sydney: [00:40:16] Well, we’ll keep you. We’ll keep you posted and gosh when we open our next Little Free Antiracist Library, we would love to have you attend and see it. The openings are pretty amazing and emotional moments seeing that these are going to be in a community and people can can access these books that are from a very carefully curated antiracist collection. So we’re really excited. [00:40:42][26.4]

Sydney: [00:40:43] That sounds like a lot of growth is in store. When can I expect one in San Jose? [00:40:47][3.5]

Sydney: [00:40:48] OK, well, we’ll talk. But you know what? Just like all nonprofits, we’re kind of like building the airplane while it’s flying right where we’re doing the work and learning a lot and getting scrappy. Yes. And as you both know, partnering with women who I just so deeply respect and be able to really meaningfully connect and collaborate with has been just a really amazing experience. [00:41:13][25.6]

Sydney: [00:41:15] Yeah, we’re super excited to follow along. [00:41:17][1.6]

Sydney: [00:41:19] Thank you. [00:41:20][0.4]

Sydney: [00:41:21] Well, to kind of wrap things all together, we wanted to learn from your perspective, how can educators — but not only teachers and professors and educators — but also community members, reimagine classrooms and their environments to be places where they can explore and elevate diverse voices? [00:41:53][31.4]

Sydney: [00:41:55] I love this question, and I again, as I told you both, brevity is not one of my strong suit, but I will try to be succinct. I really think that intentionality and recognition of one’s privilege are the cornerstones of doing this work, and so the recognition of a power of privilege of white supremacist systems, there needs to be deep learning, acknowledgment and understanding of how those systems came to be, how they still exist, how they’re perpetuated. I think that is a necessary part of this work, whether you’re an educator, a parent, a community member, anybody who’s interested in anti-racist work so that whole process, which needs to be constant and committed and ongoing. So there’s that piece and then I think intentionality. How are you selecting people for anything from a PTA board to other organizations that you’re part of if you are a classroom teacher? What do the walls of your classroom look like, whether they’re virtual walls or brick and mortar walls? Who is represented? If you’re teaching English or language arts or literature, what does that what does that canon look like? Are you and your students still engaging in literature that hasn’t been changed in twenty five years? Or you actively seeking out sources and novels of other voices? I will just say on a on a personal note. I am involved in work at my own school, my own school being the school where my two children attend elementary school, and we have two quotes on the front of our school. One is by Walt Disney and one is by Dr. Seuss. And the quotes themselves are happy and uplifting and cheerful and representative, I think of how we might associate and identify with Dr. Seuss and Walt Disney. But upon doing just a little bit of research, one becomes painfully aware of the incredibly problematic legacy of Walt Disney and Theodore Geisel, Dr. Seuss, as it relates to racist, horrifying, stereotypical images. And so the school where my children attend is made up of 50 percent nonwhite students. And the two quotes that adorn our walls, they do not represent those students. They don’t represent my children. And the men that are the authors of these quotes certainly are not representative of the values that we think are important. And so I bring that up because every part of the spaces that young people enter in should affirm, should elevate and should celebrate the many different identities that they possess. And if not, then there’s work to be done. So I would say that I think that those are like I said, the foundational cornerstones of really engaging in this work. [00:45:22][207.7]

Sydney: [00:45:24] Are you working to get those quotes removed? [00:45:25][1.4]

Sydney: [00:45:26] We are indeed, we are ready and I’ll keep you posted on that too. [00:45:30][3.4]

Sydney: [00:45:31] Meg, I think I’m speaking for both Sydney and I. We are both so, so grateful for the work that you’re doing and educators like yourselves are doing. You asked me a little earlier about Americana and what my thoughts are reading it. It was honestly probably the first book I read in like twenty two years where I felt like even mildly represented me as a child of immigrants and being an immigrant myself. And I feel like if I, I think the only book I remember reading in high school that had a person of color was like Beloved by Toni Morrison. Great book. But I think I would have benefited a lot from having more books like this growing up. And I’m sure I’m hoping that younger generations, with the work that you’re doing and your colleagues are doing will grow up to be more inclusive and just better leaders and citizens. [00:46:17][45.5]

Sydney: [00:46:18] Thank you so much. And thank you for for sharing, I feel like. Your truth and your story is is something that should be heard far and wide and really continue to inspire and inform the work that is happening on the education, publishing and curricular development side. So thank you so much. [00:46:18][0.0]